Hi everyone.
I have what I think is a pretty poor ability to audiate. Will this in itself
prevent me from progressing in the course?
Thanks
Hi Dafloydman,
When I started with IFR in Jan 2020, I had a āpretty poor ability to audiate.ā But IFR has an amazing tool, the āSing the Numbersā tracks. I started working with them and my instrument as a daily meditation. I did this for a 1-1/2 years. One day my wife was playing her guitar and singing a song. I took out my sax, and started playing along. Her jaw dropped. āWhat the &(% was that?ā she exclaimed.
When I first started this exercise, I had to spend a lot of time figuring out the key of the track, and then wrote it down. Eventually, I stopped looking at my cheat sheet and would randomly play a track so I wouldnāt memorize the key. By the time I got to the second level, I no longer wrote down the key, but fingers would find it without thought.
Growing up, I was forbidden to play an instrument. I had an abusive father who told me the reason was that I was tone deaf. I went 42 years before I took up the sax, and another 17 before I discovered IFR. Now, I can play just about any tune by ear. It is not something one is born with, it is acquired through practice and the abandoning of limiting beliefs such as, āI have pretty what I think is a pretty poor ability to audiate.ā
I hope this helps.
Woody
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Hi Woody.
Thanks so much for the inspiring post, it is a really good success story for sure.
I actually couldnāt transcribe when I first started playing but it didnāt take too long to
learn how to actually listen in the way is required.
My audiation faculty is much like my visual one, in that I will only hear or see what is inside
my head when I am not intending to. For instance if I am writing a song I will often forget it,
and when I do something else will get a flash
of a complete sample of the song and by the time I notice it is gone, but sometimes this is
enough to work with.
I am really glad for you that your genuine instinct to pursue you musicality trumped your
childhood experiences, I have seen people that appear truly gifted never really progress.
All the best mate, and thanks again.
Floyd
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Let me Agee 100%. If you use the IFR sing the numbers products, you will get there. It just takes time and regular practiceā¦ even just 5 minutes a day. But after a while youāll get hooked, and youāll naturally go longer each day. Because itās fun to sing the numbers.
Thanks so much. There is certainly lots of success stories around here.
Thanks for your help guys. One more related question.
How much clarity are we talking about?
Full replay of all parts, or just the melody?
+1 to that @hender99 Iām in my 3rd year of SInging The Numbers & I still enjoy every minute of it, even when I cycle back to 1.2.3
I was neary 60 before I rebelled against the āYour Tone Deafā judgement of my elementary school teachers. Ear training is perhaps the toughest challenge Iāve ever taken on, but so rewarding.
If you consider @MireiaClua 's Ear Training for Musical Creativity course that takes it to another level with a set of tracks called Feel The Numbers that run almost parellel to the Sing The Numbers material. Somewhere here on the forum Mireia describes how to make your own Feel The Numbers tracks too.
Edit to add: Feel The Numbers tracks again use a listen/respond format. In the response measure you still sing (&/or play) back what you just heard, the difference is that in the listen measure instead of hearing a voice sing one or more tones you hear instrument play one or more tones for you to identify & repeat. N.B. There is no answer sheet! That can seem a bit intimidating at first (which may be one of the reasons that Feel The Nembers is only available as part of a course?), but the idea that you are your own judge quickly settles in. Knowing (āfeelingā) you got the tone number wrong is the first step in getting it rightā¦
With Sing The Numbers I now cycle through the whole set (I have a āmix tapeā of all the Sing The numbers tracks, now interleaved with some chord progression recognition tracks, that I listen to while driving, gardening, etc.,). I only use the Feel The Numbers materials when I can concentrate properly on them and I only go as far as Iām comfortable with - taking @ImproviseForReal (David Reed)'s advice to go deep & slow (my words, not his?) and only move on when ready.
Currently my regular serious ear training (which I do 4-5 times a week while putting in my 10k on an exercise bike!) is centered around a set of playlists that have Feel the Numbers only ārevision & consolidationā for 71.2.3 & 5.6.71, plus a couple of Sing the Numbers/Feel the Numbers āpairsā for 5.6.71.2.3. Itās only a month or two since I moved āupā to this level. When I first started with Feel The Numbers I struggled even with the simplest 1.2.3 tracks.
And remember that Sing The Numbers can also be used in situations where itās not possible for you to sing (e.g. a crowded train, or in a āquietā place?). In those situations you can listen to Mireia & mentally sing back the tones. On at least one occasion I recall making what felt like quiet a breakthrough with my visualisations of the tones while doing exactly that.
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Really positive stuff. Thanks
David,
Do you use the tracks for voice or with your instrument or both? Iāve been using sing the numbers solely with my instrument.
Up to now Iāve used them almost exclusively with voice, only trying with instrument a very small number of times. However, I feel quite stongly that I should make more use of then with my instrument (mainly guitar, but now also trying to learn Chapman Stick), as Iām sure it would be āA Good Thingā.
To encourage/nudge myself in that direction I have in mind trying to combine instrument based Sing the Numbers with becoming familiar with the fretboard of the Chapman Stick. The steady pace of the exercise with itās built listen/respond seems well suited to the task? I had literally written āNote to Selfā about doing that earlier today, so howās that for coincidence. 
Chapman stick is a cool thing. Havenāt seen one for years.
Very cool that youāre learning to play Chapman Stick. We have a master Chapman artist here in the Verde Valley of Arizona, Michael Kollwitz. He has regular gigs in Sedona, which is about 20 miles from where I live in Cottonwood. Still havenāt gone out to hear him, sorry to say.
Iāve used the tracks exclusively with my instrument, and am considering getting Mireiaās āEar Training for Musical Creativityā because of your recommendation. I have wanted tracks without the actual number being sungāIād like to do my exercises from solely the tones.
I know of Michael, but when you mentioned a master Stickist in Arizona, the first name that came to mind was Steve Adelson, however I think heās near Phoenix? He moved to Arizona, from New York, a couple of years ago. I have Steveās instructional book & DVD, & occasionally āmeetā him on a Zoom meeting where Stickistās get together. Steveās a very inventive player, still experimenting and coming up with new techniques even though heās been playing for around 40 years (heās fond of saying that the instrument is still so new that even beginners can contribute to its development). He often plays āacross the boardā i.e. using strings on both the left & right sides of the Stick with the same hand. Thatās pretty unusual (even though it was a thing that Emmett Chapman himself was doing when he first came up with the idea of a ābass in 5ths, melody in 4thsā instrument). Hereās Steve playing a gig at the Musical Instrument Museum (MIM) in Phoenix last November. Some of the techniques heās using in this track are ones he invented during lockdown.
Iām certain youād find it to be a great value purchase. 
Iām certain youād find it to be a great value purchase
I did buy it yesterday, and worked with it all day today. It was exactly what I was looking for! When I played the first feel the numbers track, I could hear in my head the numbers! It definitely is worth it. Even though I have had IFR since Jan 2020, Iām really doubling down with it now. Iām enrolled in Jelskeās 12-week class also. It is good to have the accountability of classmates and access to an instructor, as well as a new lesson each week.
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+1 to that too. I found the course to be a great āacceleratorā. Fundamentally the course is based on the approach described & explained in the IFR book, but having it set out by Jelske too, combined with the environment & framework of the 12 week course and the interaction with classmates was a big boost to my development.
Iāve started doing this now (2 days).
Last time I did StN with instrument I donāt think my voice was ready (I was only just starting learning an instrument and had only just discovered I even had a āvoiceā). Now, mainly playing the numbers but with the freedom to sing too when the mood takes me, it feels so natural. 
Because guitar is my main instrument I use that first to find the key & take a pass or two through the track, then I move to the Chapman Stick. On the Stick, a significant part of the exercise is as an adjunct to becoming familiar with the fretboard (2 hands, ascending 4ths on one side, descendng 5ths on the other), so simply fingering the notes is plenty at this stage - but if I feel like ābreaking into songā thatās permitted.
Thanks @woodyhaiken for this post. As @dafloydman said, itās very inspiring, and especially to me at 56 and just starting with Sing the Numbers.
Hi Everyone,
Like [dafloydman] Iāve a pretty poor ability to audiate (thatās being kind, I am beyond poor at singing (canāt even do an octave, genuinely)).
Does anyone have any other suggestions other than singing which help associate tones with numbers.
If I just listened to sing the numbers do you think it would eventually go in?
Btw itās not false modesty about my singing itās beyond poor. I can hear Iām singing the wrong note but canāt make my voice go to the correct one.
Hi @FatMark , welcome to the forum
Do you play an instrument? Playing the number is also good (Playing and singing is even better, of course).
At the risk of stating the obvious, knowing you are wrong is the first step towards being correct.
You are not on your own. Up to 3-4 years ago Iād gone through life labelled as tone deaf just because Iād never realised that pitch matching was a thing that you ādidā rather than just a thing that āhappenedā (for other people). Discovering that pitch matching was the missing ingredient has transformed my musical life.
After nearly 60 years of just listening passively, ear training is probably the hardest task Iāve ever set myself. Itās now 3 years since I first went through @MireiaClua 's āEar Training for Musical Creativityā course. I did the 10 weeks in real time (& have done so again a couple of time since), but in my own time Iāve gone through the 10 levels at a snails pace, only progressing to the next āweekā when I had become almost automatically competent at the previous level.
When I first started even the basic, just notes 1 2 & 3, tracks were really really hard for me.
I do active ear training for at least 30m 4-5 times a week, and often ājust listenā outside those times.
Iāve often spent months on a single level.
After 3 years Iāve just moved on to start working on āweek 10ā (whilst still consolidating earlier āweeksā, by keeping week 7, 8 & 9 material in my routines).
Keep trying. Things will happen.
@FatMark PS. If you donāt use then already, then I recommend checking out a few simple vocal warm up exercises too, e.g. lip trills & tongue trills. They may feel a bit silly at first, but I find that doing a few minutes of those before a proper voice based ear training session is a big help.
PPS The first time I said to my wife āYou know the tune, it goes ā¦ā and she actually recognised the tune was a great feeling. It was the first time sheās recognised something Iād tried to sing in heading for 40 years togetherā¦
She has an excellent ear and is also delighted I no longer produce a toneless drone. 