Looking at The Rose

IFR Song Analysis
8

Cool @ImproviseForReal, so much detailed info, thanks David.

I’m liking the sound of the 6- chord at the point in question. It’s a nice sounding movement from the 3- chord to the 6- and staying on the note 5 in the melody.

Here’s what I have for line 3

1 | 3- | 6- | 4 | 5D

The 1 chord at start I’m playing as a continuation/end of the last bar of the previous line which is the 1 chord, but you’re right something happens on the last beat to prepare for the shift. But I’m going to keep in simple for now.

With the melody

343 | [3-]5 555 | [6-]51 23 | [4]4 321 | [5D]5

And on the fretboard

•••••3
36••14
4•••••
••••25
51••••
••••3•
•••14•

There are a few tricky positions, so not quite decided how to best combine note 3 in the bass with melody note 5, followed by 6 in the bass. But I like the low 3 moving up to 6, so just need to try some positions.

Would others approach this in a similar fashion? Or do something completely different, I’d be interested to know.

I need to work on this for a while before I can start adding any other chord notes.

9

A bit stumbling, but here it is so far

10

@mem, Wow, this is beautiful Marie-Elaine!!! You’ve built the perfect shell of an arrangement. The melody is perfect, the chords are perfect, and you’ve got everything lined up rhythmically in exactly the right places. And if you can do this with “The Rose” then you can do it with any song in the world, so I’m very happy for you that you’ve really understood these basic principles and that you’re able to use them to create your own arrangements.

One really nice thing about the song you’ve chosen is that it has a strong melody that stays very constant, meaning that there aren’t any “melodic deserts” where the melody just kind of stops and a bunch of measures go by. This means that the song even works very well in “rubato” (meaning free time with no tempo) which is very helpful when you’re just learning to play your own arrangement.

Would you add some chord notes as a next step?

FWIW, here’s how I see the process and where you are currently. There is an initial period of just understanding the structure of a song and learning to recreate that structure on the guitar. During this period, it’s a mistake to worry too much about the final product. Don’t get drawn into the temptation of beautifying your arrangement, composing little phrases or accompaniments that are going to sound great. All of that comes later, but right now it can become a distraction from the work that we need to do first, which is simply to learn to see the lay of the land.

For this reason, in my opinion the next step of the process would be exactly what we do in Chord Melody Guitar 1, which is to fill in the choir and add chord notes to your arrangement. It doesn’t matter if you like all of these chord note choices because we’re going to throw all of this away when we move on to the next phase of our process. But just as it’s been helpful for you to see clearly the relationship between each melody note and the chord roots that you’re playing, it will be just as helpful to fill in the choir and appreciate how the melody note relates to all of the notes of each chord.

But remember that we haven’t even begun to sculpt our true creative output. We’re still just learning to visualize the structure of the song, both melodically and harmonically, on the fretboard of the guitar. So you don’t have to worry about learning to execute all of those chord voicings smoothly. Some of the chord changes won’t be smooth at all, because logistically there are only certain things that the left hand can do smoothly. This is why it’s nice to work with a song that has a strong melody like “The Rose”, so that you can do all of this exploration very slowly in rubato and you can still feel the beauty of the song.

Then as soon as you’re able to play the melody accompanied by fuller chords, that’s when you’ve really completed the learning phase and you’re ready to graduate to the performance phase. That’s the fun part, because that’s where you can now start taking things away, sculpting your arrangement so that it’s both more impactful musically and simultaneously much easier to play. That’s also when you can express your own creativity, adding new melodies and riffs in your accompaniment. And you can continue to enjoy embellishing your arrangement for the rest of your life, because your musical possibilities will grow as you grow.

But my advice would be to hold off on that creative exploration for just another couple weeks, and first give yourself time to simply add chord notes to the arrangement you’ve started, so that you have an even more solid grasp of the musical landscape before you start taking things away.

If you run into any technical challenges or questions in that process, please bring them to the forum so we can discuss! Thank you so much for sharing a recording of your work. For me, this is the most valuable content on the forum because it’s such a privilege to see how other musicians are using some of the same concepts that we’re all studying. So I really appreciate your generosity in revealing some of your process with us!

David

11

Thanks David @ImproviseForReal, yes I will start adding chord notes, but I hadn’t thought of the process as you describe it. I’ve been trying to make it sound quite nice (at least to me!) and not been thinking of a first exploration phase, which is discarded once we are comfortable with the structure.

On adding chord notes, I’ve started just figuring out where the 3rd and 5th are for each chord, if they are accessible with the melody notes being played. I’m finding its either one or the other, the 3rd on the major chords and the fifth on the minor ones tends to be the case, I guess that might just be how I’ve chosen to place the melody and root notes.

I’m getting a lot out of this process and particularly David’s input. But please, if anyone else would like to contribute, feel free. It would be great to know how others are doing this kind of thing.

12

Another stumbling version, but with added chord notes

And another with chord notes played in unison with melody

So, taking on board what David said about the first phase being about exploring the structure and layout of the piece, I’m trying not be concerned with how laboured it sounds, but concentrate on what is possible with my playing ability and what notes I can physically reach/play.

I feel I’m learning more this way than just picking up an arrangement already written and trying to play it. I feel that would be a purely physical endeavour, rather than this way which seems more experiential. I’ve just re-read the chapter in the IFR book about the value of first-hand experience, and it seems to make sense.

1 Like
13

Not sure where else to go with this, other than just to keep playing it this way, it’s quite a pretty melody, and enjoyable to play.

Should I try to move it around the fretboard to experiment with different shapes? Or stay in the same place and try to add more interest there?

How about some-one else post what they have done with it? Or ideas they have for it.

14

Sorry @mem, I’m just an ‘observer’ on this one. Too many projects & practice areas of my own on the go…

15

No problem @DavidW, maybe you could post something on what you’re working on …:slightly_smiling_face:

16

My main project at present is familiarisation & technique building with a new instrument, Chapman Stick, so there’s a lot of buzzing, hesitations & outright wrong notes at present. :). I am however making IFR materials a fundamental part of that exercise, e.g. I use the Sing the Numbers exercises as a form of semi-random fretboard familiarisation & fingering technique exercise.

On the ‘melody side’ which is tuned in familiar guitar like ascending 4ths I use StN tracks randomly. On the bass side I’m needing to progress more slowly keeping to simpler more limited note ranges while I get my head around the very different fingering needed for the descending 5th tuning.

The attached pdf, is a ‘peek sheet’ I created for the tuning I’m using. My current instrument is a 10 string Stick, so I’m just using the middle 10 ‘strings’ on that sheet.

Because ascending 4th & descending 5th are inversions the note patterns are in a sense exactly the same, however the intervals within those patterns are not. For example 2 string ‘East’ & 2 frets ‘South’ gives you the same scale degree on both sides, but while on the melody side that’s an octave up as on guitar, on the bass side it’s an octave down.

1 string ‘East’ & 5 frets ‘North’ is a guitar like unison on the melody side, but the same shape is an octave down on the bass side. Unison on the bass side is 1 string ‘East’ & 7 frets ‘South’, or 1 ‘West’ & 7 ‘North’.

And then comes the added fun of trying to use both at the same time. Lot’s of (enjoyable) work ahead. :smiley:

Edit to add: Also note that while the left (‘West’) side is known as the ‘bass’ side, the 5ths intervals mean that if you have a 12 string the highest note on the ‘melody’ side is only a semitone higher than the highest on the ‘bass’ side.

C12 _ BM10 Peek Sheet # & numbered C’s.pdf (23.2 KB)

17

Wow, that does sound like a “project” @DavidW !

I’d never heard of a Chapman Stick before, and when you mentioned it I did a quick YouT search, looks like quite a beast of an instrument :slightly_smiling_face: It’s good that you can use and apply the IFR materials to a new instrument, and that it’s helping you get oriented.

I’d love to hear a sound file to get an idea of what it’s like, but no pressure!

18

We are getting a bit off topic, but hey, it’s your topic. :wink:

Rather than offer my (so far) limited range of sounds here’s a copy & paste from something I wrote recently when trying to describe the Stick to a friend by email. This part of it mainly consists of a collection of youtube videos in attempt to give an idea of the wide range of ways people use it.

Many Stickists play solo. Many are improvisers. They (we?) are a very diverse bunch, as is the music played. The best known Stickist is probably Tony Levin, who has played bass & Stick with Peter Gabriel & with King Crimson since the mid 70’s.

Here are a few youtube examples, starting with Emmett Chapman (the inventor) himself.

Rodrigo Serrão (playing Bach) Rodrigo Serrão plays Bach Cello Suite No.1 in G (full) on the Chapman Stick | BWV 1007 - YouTube

Steve Adelson (original Jazz) Engaged - YouTube

Abby Clutario (Tears in Heaven cover) Tears in Heaven - Eric Clapton (Abby Clutario Chapman Stick cover) - YouTube

Greg Howard (All Along the Watchtower cover) All Along the Watchtower - Greg Howard on the Chapman Stick - YouTube

Bob Culbertson (Dark Side of the Moon cover) Dark Side Of The Moon, Live Chapman Stick concert - YouTube

Greg Howard again (23 minute improv) "Quiet, Time" Chapman Stick improvisation by Greg Howard - YouTube

Tony Levin (as part of King Crimson) Elephant Talk: King Crimson on 'Fridays', ABC TV, USA - YouTube

19

@mem Wow, beautiful arrangements Marie-Elaine! Both of these concepts are fantastic. You could even combine them by playing the more straight version (what you’re calling “chord notes in unison with melody”) the first time through the song, and then adding your more sophisticated accompaniment for the second time through the song. That’s a natural way to highlight the drama of your more elaborate accompaniment. If we hear that part first, then it’s not as surprising. But if you can first get us to follow your story with a much simpler accompaniment, then your arpeggiated version will feel like a full orchestra suddenly coming in.

As for where to go from here, I encourage you to follow your own curiosity and passions. For some people, this is the ideal moment to simply move on to a new activity. This is especially helpful if you have a tendency to get bogged down with too many musical goals and projects on your “to do” list. It’s important to be able to put things down and not become a slave to them. So it’s perfectly fine at this point to just move on to something else if that’s what’s most appealing to you. Pretty much anything you do on the guitar is going to result in having more control over the sounds. So even if you go off and play other things for a year, when you come back to this arrangement you’ll find that you can play it much more easily and you can express yourself much more.

But if you are the kind of person who enjoys physical practice and making things beautiful, then your arrangement is a perfect place for you to learn and grow with your guitar. What you could do next is first pick just one of the two versions that you recorded. Let’s say that we’ll focus first on the simpler accompaniment of playing the chords in unison with the first melody note in each measure. Notice that once you’ve played the melody note accompanied by the chord on the downbeat of each measure, the melody naturally takes a breath in that moment. So as soon as you’ve played that chord beautifully, you can rest for a moment and just let it ring out.

This leads naturally to an obvious way to break the arrangement into pieces for practicing. The first piece is just the phrase with the lyrics, “Some say love”. Imagine that this is the entire exercise. All you have to do is play note 1 by itself, then play note 2 by itself, and then play note 3 accompanied by the 1 chord.

How beautifully can you do that? How slowly and gently do you need to play this phrase in order to make it beautiful? What can you learn about the physical movements and sensations from playing this phrase several times VERY slowly and carefully? The most effective practice doesn’t involve repeating this phrase 1,000 times hoping that it magically becomes smooth. The ideal practice is to play the phrase just one time, and to notice every little detail about that experience. Then play it again, more slowly and even more attentively this time. If you reduce your entire world to just this single 3-note phrase, very soon you’ll discover that you can play this phrase 10 times more beautifully, and it’s actually MORE relaxed and easy than what you’re doing now. It’s merely a question of raising our level of consciousness, noticing the entire choreography that’s involved in playing those first three notes with a chord on the last note.

Then once you’re feeling perfectly relaxed and at peace with that first phrase, you can begin to explore the second phrase with the same patient, loving attention. If this is your first chord melody arrangement, then you’ll probably need to go through every single phrase in your arrangement with this same methodical exploration. But as you gain experience playing more songs, the lessons will start to pay off because you’ll find yourself in many physical situations that are very similar to situations that you’ve already studied and mastered. So at that point the graceful choreography that I’m describing has just become a basic part of the way you play the guitar, and it’s not something that you need to figure out and discover for each new phrase.

My personal bias would be to take the arrangement in this direction because it’s so inspiring to hear our own arrangements come to life. But as I say, your music practice is entirely your own, and you have to respect your own needs and curiosity about what you would like to explore next. Thank you SO MUCH for sharing so much of your creative process with us! It’s really wonderful to hear you creating your own arrangements and to see them come together in real time!

20

Yes, I seem to have highjacked by own topic!

Thanks for this info @DavidW, I’ll take a look at those videos. From what I watched previously, it looked like you need an amp for this instrument, is that right, like an electric guitar? or can you hear it unamplified?

21

Thanks David, @ImproviseForReal, that’s given me some ideas. I think I will explore it some more, it’s quite a pretty song and simple progression to work with. I’ll post anything new I come with.

22

For all practical purposes you need to be able to plug in @mem . It’s not impossible to practice unamplified. By coincidence, I did so yesterday as I was pushed for time, only had 10m & wanted to make the most of it - turning on my kit would only have taken a minute or so, but that would have been >10% & in such a short time I was only going to be doing some very basic things so I pretty much ‘played by feel’ with only the tiny acoustic sound. It’s not a thing I’d choose to do in any other circumstance.

The unamplified sound is so quiet that if I listen to the output from whatever I’m plugged into via headphones (which I often do) I can practice in the same room that my wife is in without disturbing her at all. Used acoustically my Yamaha ‘Silent Guitar’ is louder than the Stick. LOL!

What I plug into doesn’t have to be an actual amp. If I’m not in my usual room or if I want to be particularly ‘portable’ I can plug into my Zoom H4n handy recorder (which I’ll probably listen to via headphones).

Another point is that unless you use a special ‘2 into 1’ practice cable, you need to have 2 inputs available because the Stick has two feeds, one from the melody side & another from the bass side.

Some people use 2 amps. I use a MOD Duo-X, a wonderful device (amp modeller, effects, signal processor & so much more, in a remarkably small box) that has 2 inputs.

23

It looks like an interesting and challenging instrument. My preference is for acoustic instruments, although having said that I do have an electric piano(!).

From watching the videos, the sound can be very different depending on the equipment used. I’m sure you are having a lot of fun with it.

24

An electronic keyboard is a very practical alternative to a ‘real’ acoustic one!

Yes. You can use the full range of guitar effects & because of the two outputs each side can has a different signal path so you can get two quite different sounds at the same time. Personally, both with Stick & guitar, I like to keep things pretty ‘clean’, typically only using a bit of reverb & compression.

Some people, e.g. Steve Adelson, have a MIDI pickup fitted too. That adds a whole host of extra possibilities.

PS. Emmett made an ‘AcouStick’ for Bob Culbertson, but only that one.

The ‘Dragonfly’ is an acoustic instrument from a different supplier that was obvioulsy inspired by the Stick.
The Dragonfly has nylon strings. Here’s Rodrigo Serrao (who was playing Bach on a Stick in an earlier video) playing a Dragonfly.

25

I love that idea @ImproviseForReal . Thank you (again) David for all these wonderful ideas & insights. :slight_smile:

26

Oh, I like the Dragonfly! But let’s start a new topic to carry on a discussion🙂

27

Ok, back to The Rose …

I’ve been listening to a few different versions, and noticing elements I like from them. Two in particular I’m going to try

One is a repeating note (root/bass) or small chord on the beat. A lot if the arrangements start with this and continue it for the first verse at least.

The other is a small motif of 3231, repeating and I think changing with the underlying chord.