Hi all
I purchased the IFR programme many years ago and keep dipping in every now and then. Although I have just really started I have a question. When I am in the 1st environment I can definitely hear one easily and when I listen to songs out of the programme most of the time I can hear it. The other numbers though is not so easy. In the tracks I can distinguish 2 and 3 but if I listen to other music I can not follow any other numbers. I know it will come from experience but when I listen to other music it just seems magical to produce this lovely sound with just 7 notes.
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Welcome to the froum @Philrab66 .
I started from pretty much ground zero about 5 years ago having spent nearly 60 years believing I was ātone deafā. Iāve always loved listening to music, but I was doing it totally passively. I now has plenty of evidence that my subconscious understands all this stuff. To me IFR ear training is a path towards developing conscious access to that understanding. Itās been a long road, and i still have a long way to go, but I hear, do & understand things now that would have seemed like pure magic to to me of 5 years ago. I use the Sing the Numbers (& Feel the Numbers) for 20-25 minutes 4-5 days a week (sometimes more), and Iāve been through the Ear Training for Musical Creativity workshop several times. Indeed Iām on the workshop that is running right now. Each time through Iāve understood more.
Most people seem to progress faster than me. Maybe you will too? That doesnāt bother me in the slightest; Iām just delighted that I have a better understanding that I used to, and I can see a road to further progress.
Iām having fun. I hope you do to. Keep at it. It worksā¦ 
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I feel you! Real music out in the āwildā is a lot more complex than āSing The Numbersā! I can also usually āfeelā which note is supposed to be ā1ā by listening to a song and asking myself āif I were to end this song now, which note is it begging me to end it on?ā Iām also noticing that notes 2 and 3 donāt seem to be the most likely ānextā notes for me to be able to easily notice within a general song. But I often hear another note playing that fits especially āniceā with the overall song ā and Iām noticing from playing simple little 2-note āchordsā on my midi keyboard while the song is playing ā that this is very often either note 4 or note 5 that Iām hearing.
Iām only just starting though (only been āsinging the numbersā for about a month now), so weāll see if at some point I start to hear notes 2 and 3 in songs as well. Perhaps Iāll be able to āhearā note 4 or note 5 in real songs reliably before I can hear the others?
Iām also noticing that note 2 is hard to sing. It sometimes feels like it āclashesā with notes 1 and 3. Iām sure thatās because itās not at (or at least not close enough to) ā a nice low-integer-ratio of frequencies to sound consonant with notes 1 and 3, so itās taking a while to get it right, and it sometimes āfeelsā different coming down to it from note 3 versus coming up to it from note 1.
I will keep at it though. I wish you luck in your training, fellow student!
@Nate_B Youāve probably come across this already, but just in case not, that relationship is often described in terms of relaxation & tension, i.e. 1 is super relaxed (itās āhomeā), 3 is pretty relaxed (comfortable, but not home), and 2 is more tense, giving a feeling of wanting some movement up or down to a more relaxed place.
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Thanks for everyoneās comments. There must be a lot of similarities in most songs as there are so few notes. And I guess the 4 and 5 comes up most as it does with chords in songs.
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I experienced something the other day that I think you may find it helpful to know about. I was listening to a song and I could swear I heard ā2 1 2 1ā being played. I canāt always hear the note ā2ā at this point, it was just that one pattern I recognized.
But it got me thinking that maybe thatās how it works? Maybe like with language, where youāre recognizing entire words and not just individual letters, you recognize entire patterns of notes and not just individual notes.
Maybe all ābeing able to hear notes 1, 2, and 3ā really means is being able to recognize ā2 1 2 1ā if itās played, AND being able to recognize ā1 2 1ā if itās played, AND being able to recognize ā2 3 2 1ā if itās played, AND being able to recognize ā1 2 3ā if itās played, and so onā¦
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Good point @Nate_B . Iām pretty sure thatās a major reason why the Sing The Numbers trackas are arranged as they are? @MireiaClua isnāt just singing random groups, instead sheās singing carefully chosen examples of the sort of musical phrases that exist in ārealā music.
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Great comments all, and welcome @Philrab66 to our forum! It sounds like youāre all doing great, focusing on exactly the right things. Let me just add that what weāre really trying to learn is a new practice of listening more actively for the tonal numbers in the music we hear and in our own playing.
So what weāre really talking about is a new level in our relationship with music. Weāre no longer content with learning random licks and songs and just saying, āthat sounded coolā. Of course it sounded cool. But what was it? Was it the 6- chord? Was it the notes 3, 4 and 5?
If youāve spent a long time playing music without this awareness of the tonal landscape, it can be easy to misunderstand this new project as a one-time quick fix. We think that we can go from total darkness to full knowledge of the world in a single day. But this isnāt how it works. What we can do in a single day is open our eyes. We can begin to listen for the tonal numbers. We can begin to notice and identify some sounds that we recognize (e.g. Philās experience with note 1).
This is more important than you realize, because now youāve begun organizing the world into sounds that you recognize and sounds that you donāt. And for the first time, now you have a framework for storing your discoveries about new sounds. So if tomorrow you discover a heartbreaking melody that is so gorgeous that you just need to understand it, now you have the tools to identify those sounds as b6, 5, 4 and 3 (for example). And from that day forward, nobody will ever have to tell you any ātheoryā about how to use notes b6, 5, 4 and 3, because you already experienced their magic for yourself. So this is how more and more sounds get moved from the pile of sounds we donāt recognize to the pile of sounds that we do recognize.
But what weāre trying to teach is a new practice of enlightened listening and a conceptual framework for storing those discoveries. And to be sure, weāll try to help you make all of the most important discoveries in the beginning, because this is what gives you the foundational vocabulary that you need to start recognizing everything else. But I just want to assure everyone on this thread that you shouldnāt be troubled by the sounds you donāt recognize yet. Ultimately itās not about how many sounds you have personally discovered and clarified. Itās about awakening your consciousness of the tonal landscape so that you can start to accumulate and remember the discoveries you make.
This is why we have always resisted including āself-testsā with our Sing the Numbers course. The real test isnāt whether you recognize the sounds. These sounds are only the beginning. The real test is whether youāve been able to integrate these two skills of active listening and tonal visualization into your daily music practice. Get that part right, and you have a lifelong process for recognizing ALL of the sounds.
I hope that helps illuminate the path a little bit. Thanks for the wonderful contributions youāve already made, and I invite you all to keep thinking and sharing on this topic.
David
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Well said David, and thanks for your input. I definately feel that my consciousness has been awakened. Particularly by taking part in the Ear Training workshop, I feel Iām starting to both internalise the sounds and locate them on the map. But as you say you have to take it slowly, and not get discouraged.
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@mem @ImproviseForReal @MireiaClua Yes. For me this particular run is feeling especially fruitful. It almost feels as if the previous 4 or more years of IFR study have been preparation for this last few weeks (& the weeks to come, hopefully).
In my self-directed use of StN & FtN Iād slowly worked up to about āLesson 9 & a halfā. Stepping right back from that point for the course, starting again from 1.2.3 and slowly expaning Iām feeling so much more connection with & understanding of the tones. 
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